A Challenge to Dr. Gregory Boyd
This will be the last post I add to the message board on Gregory Boyd’s website. I have tried relentlessly, but it seems as though I have accomplished nothing. I posted the following challenge to Dr. Boyd. I have also included a response to some on the post I started: The ‘god’ of Open Theism (rather fllipant eh?).
Dr. Boyd,
I am writing of desperation. I was hoping I could visit this message board and challenge Open Theists to re-think the very view they hold of God. It seems as though the work I have done here has been to no avail.
Now, it should be noted I have been less than edifying in how I staged my arguments, and I apologize for anyone on this board that I may offended. I feel strongly that God is in danger, and I sought out whatever means possible to save Him. But I have seen the folly of my ways, I must not contradict myself in that I believe God is completely sovereign (in that He has planned the ends as well as the means) and trust that He will work in this arena.
I challenge you Dr. Boyd to save God. Bring Him back to who He is. If this is indeed an “actuality” please settle it. I’ve read enough of you, Pinnock, and Sanders vs. Piper, Ware, White, Mohler, and the ETS to realize that the only thing being accomplished is both sides digging deeper into their convictions and getting no where. Let us preserve the worldview of God as “holy, holy, holy.”
And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within; and day and night they do not cease to say, “HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is THE LORD GOD, THE ALMIGHTY, WHO WAS AND WHO IS AND WHO IS TO COME.” And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying, “Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.“
Revelation 4:8–11
Here is another response I wrote on their board.
I believe in free will as well, but not in the “openness” sense. I believe that not only does God know everything that has and will come to pass, but He also provided the means for that to happen. We are responsible, moral agents. Free will is compatible with sovereignty.
It just seems to me that Open Theists (and Arminians) want to preserve “free will” so much that they eisegetically construe the Bible to come to such a resolution. There is nothing in the Bible to lead us to any rational conclusion that we can “choose otherwise” from God’s act of foreordination.
I have read nothing in Boyd’s, Pinnock’s, or Sander’s material to even come close to a sound, systematic conclusion. There is a reason Pinnock and Sanders were brought up for expulsion out of the ETS, and the same reason that Sanders was removed from his post.
I read Boyd say:
“The Open view demeans God’s sovereignty only if ‘sovereignty’ is equated with ‘meticulous control.’ Defenders of the open view of the future believe that the biblical portrayal of God’s sovereignty consists of much more than mere control and includes dynamic qualities such as flexibility, spontaneity and creativity. These aspects of God’s sovereignty are meaningless if the future is exhaustively settled.“1
“Meticulous control” is exactly the caricature that Arminians and Open Theists want to make Calvinists out to be (as I am defending my stance); that we are simply puppets of God, but the fail to even understand what the Calvinist (and Biblical) view of sovereignty is:
Divine Sovereignty
The right of God to do as He wishes (Psalm 50:1; Isaiah 40:15; 1 Tim. 6:15) with His creation. This implies that there is no external influence upon Him and that He also has the ability to exercise His power and control according to His will. 2
God is in absolute control. His sovereignty is affirmed, because He apparently gives us complete free will to decide what the “actualities” will become. Why does Boyd see God as “flexibility and spontane[ous]?” In denying the very anthropomorphisms that Open Theists do, you are reading in un-Biblical anthropomorphisms.
Now, I know Romans 9 is a common reformed text (as it should be), but there is a very real reason why it is as such. Paul dealt with these various questions posed on God’s character (ie Boyd’s comment up top).
You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
Romans 9:19–24
We are not to “guess” or read into what we would like God to be. The God of the Bible is in complete control, all-knowing, does with us as He pleases. We must end this budding anthropecentrist theology. Please…
cpoteet: I must not contradict myself in that I believe God is completely sovereign (in that He has planned the ends as well as the means) and trust that He will work in this arena.
Tim: Then do that? Do not contradict … He has planned the ends of the ‘Open View’ as well as the means … trust that He is at work in this arena … completely sovereign … or do I wish to contradict myself at this point about God preordaining the OV … that is prove otherwise and yet say I am wiser because of it?
I stay out of this debate for the most part, because as you say, “desperation”; about what, God being completely sovereign in the arena of ends and means?
I hope one day to see the circle I have created around myself? Peace out brother!!!
Have some Pudding to go with your efforts
Imagination projects unreal images out of the mind and seeks to attach reality to them. Faith creates nothing; it simply reckons upon that which is already there.
cpoteet: Divine Sovereignty: The right of God to do as He wishes (Psalm 50:1; Isaiah 40:15; 1 Tim. 6:15) with His creation. This implies that there is no external influence upon Him and that He also has the ability to exercise His power and control according to His will.
Tom: Fine. On what basis then would you deny God the right to create us with libertarian free will and place us in a world which is partly open IF THAT’S WHAT GOD WANTED? Are you denying him the right to WANT this? The ability to DESIRE this kind of world? If God is absolutely sovereign in the sense you here descreibe, then he should have the freedom to limit the ‘exercise’ of his power and make SOME things conditioned upon wills other than his own. On what basis you would tell God he is INCAPABLE of doing such a thing? Do you want to limit God’s sovereignty?
Tom
I guess people from Boyd’s site made it over here.
But the problem with your comment is that you cannot back up your presupposition that God did in fact excercise His sovereignty to grant us Libertarian free will. You are trying to turn the argument around but doing so unsucessfully. Your teaching a paradox of the stone.