Fearing God
Reverence (n): a profound emotion inspired by a deity.
Paul stated the importance of fearing God. To be short, reverence is brought about by fear. I am often disappointed to almost unimaginable levels of how the wrath of God is downplayed today. Paul lifts up this idea in Romans 11.
You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either."
Romans 11:19-21
Romans 11 is known for the capstone of chapters 9-11 which deal with the standing of ethnic Israel and the Gentile inbringing. Chapter 9 Paul struggles deeply with his brethren (that is, ethnic Jews) that have been cut out of the salvific promise of God because they are not following the Messiah: "For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh" (Rom 9:3). This goes into an important theological truth where he says: "...not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED" (Rom 9:6-7). He is teaching that the salvific promise is not only extended to gentiles but that the composition of Israel or "people of God" contains both ethnic and spiritual descendants of Abraham (Gen 12:1-3).
Paul then goes on to display the nature of God, and it is rather antithetical to modern evangelicalism for Paul to say that God said: ""JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED" (Rom 9:13). And then Paul says:
For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
Romans 9:15-16
We then get the nature of God as dispensing grace where He would have it. Paul then deals with this teaching, because he knew it wouldn't be accepted well even back then, by utilizing the potter analogy from Isaiah (45:9; 64:8) in verses 19-21: "On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God?" We then get the consummation of not only the thought, but I believe these three verses are a summary of the Bible (sorry guys, not John 3:16):
What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
Romans 9:22-24
It is interesting here, because Paul attributes God's redemptive purposes to demonstrate wrath, power, patience, and glory. Love is not utilized in this passage. While we of course cannot deny that redemptive purposes of God stem from love; Paul states very clearly that it is His wrath and power that He wants known throughout the nations (Psa 102:15).
I cannot do justice to all of chapters 9 through 11, but I want to come back to the selection from chapter 11 to illustrate how Paul sets up that God wants His wrath and power know and we thereby should fear God. I have a profound sense of reverence when I contemplate upon the wrath of God. I find it very interesting that Scripture attributes the beginning of knowledge of God comes through fear.
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; A good understanding have all those who do His commandments; His praise endures forever.
Psalms 111:10
This passage is one of the first I learned in the Bible, and I'm grateful for it. It gave the proper perspective for me to grasp the mercy of God by understanding first that it involved the relinquishing of His wrath. Paul clearly teaches this in Romans 11. After the olive tree analogy which he utilizes to illustrate how the Gentiles have been "grafted in" to the people of God (Israel), he is quick to remind them that they must stay in reverence of God through fear.
You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
Romans 11:19-21
I exhort you as well as Paul did. Don't get complacent or conceited in your faith. Fear God, because without it we will never understand His mercy.
You who fear the LORD, praise Him; All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him, And stand in awe of Him, all you descendants of Israel.
Psalms 22:23
Nov 7th 2005
Is fear of the Lord something that is our choice? The people who fear the Lord, are they exercising will? If so, and if your understanding of 9:15-16 is correct, then fear of the Lord has nothing to do with whether or not a person receives God's mercy. Would you agree?
Nov 7th 2005
Of course fearing the Lord is an excercise of the will. Like I said in the post, it is the first sign of wisdom (understanding of God, Psa 110:10). Fearing God comes from regeneration. Paul states this idea in Rom 3: ""THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES" (Rom 3:18). This verse is important, because Paul is talking about the unregenerate. So regeneration (God's mercy) = fear of God.
Nov 7th 2005
Prior to regeneration, one cannot fear God?
Nov 7th 2005
Can you substantiate a position Biblically that true fear of the true God takes place before regeneration?
Nov 7th 2005
Is that a "no"? :)
Nov 7th 2005
Sure.
Nov 8th 2005
I don't think unregenerate man fears God .. not in any way that leads to reverence.
I think that what is most important is that we agree there.
It's just that it is wholly absurd, from my perspective, to think that "As unregenerate, you are unable to fear the Lord - and unable to come to God," and then to say to an unregenerate, "Fear God," or "You ought to fear the Lord," or "You need to become a Christian," as if, on your worldview, it is consistent to think that people are responsible for that over which they have no control. The unregenerate are, after all, (on your worldview) unABLE to come to God, to choose rightly, to fear the Lord. And here is the crux: it does not seem to me at all consistent that God would set things up this way; it is not at all in line with what I know of His character, His nature, that He would hold someone responsible for something he is unable to do.
Most Calvinists I know bitch and moan endlessly about how great sinners we are, about how we've forgotten what it means to fear the Lord, about how we've forgotten how awesome God's wrath is .. it sickens me. Here we are in this paradoxical time .. where on the one hand, mainstream culture denies the existence of "sin" and so many professed Christ-followers overemphasize it. There is some golden mean that is ignored by both sides - that golden mean found in scripture.
Christ-followers need more show more love, and they need to have more heart - not more wrath.
Nov 8th 2005
Woah, woah, woah slow down there bro. You said: "it is not at all in line with what I know of His character, His nature, that He would hold someone responsible for something he is unable to do," but you left it rather unqualified. What is your view of His nature/character. Beggining the question I might say. And why is it absurd to say that an unregenerate man cannot fear God, but he should? Paul says this very thing by quoting OT passages in Rom 3:10-18. You're going to have to substantiate this.
Christ followers do need to show more love, but I'm not talking about the actions of Christians towards others in this writing. I am referring here specifically to how we think of God, and by that we can be led to show more love.
Nov 8th 2005
This is a sincere comparison: If you were to think and believe with all of your heart that "the Bible says that 2+2 equals 5," what would follow is that your interpretation is wrong, not that God can do contradictory things like make necessary truths of logic false.
On to your second paragraph: I ask, how does believing God holds people responsible for what they cannot do supposed to help us show more love? How is it supposed to help us understand God more? Are we to understand that he is a contradiction within himself? That morality and justice and the like are simply arbitrarily defined by Him (according to His "good" will)?
These are serious questions which reflect the heart of the debate between me and you - and between non-Calvinists and Calvinists.
Nov 8th 2005
Maybe I don't understand the question. The premise of the article was understanding an aspect of God's character. Understanding the love shown to us can certainly aid in our appreciation and dispensation of love.
I don't understand, but that's b/c my theological system must be logically incoherent. I told you, I'm converting to Molinism effective 0900 tomorrow.