A Theology of the Gifts
I feel as though much of evangelicalism makes the doctrine of Pneumatology (the Holy Spirit) more difficult than it has to be. The only thing we seem to agree on is that the Holy Spirit is God everything else is up for grabs. Some believe that the believer can receive a subsequent experience of the Spirit after salvation (Pentecostals, etc.), and some believe that the Holy Spirit has ceased working in terms of miraculous spiritual gifts (traditional reformed Christians). Let’s make this a little easier.
Subsequence and the Spirit
I just finished a book by John Stott entitled Baptism & Fullness: The Work of the Holy Spirit Today, and I found it to be a breath of fresh air in the debate. The edition I read was from 1974, and it is every bit as timely today as then. He started off by very convincingly proving that a theology that the Holy Spirit indwells believers subsequent to conversion is faulty on many levels. He contrasted the fact that although the Apostles in Acts 2 received the Spirit subsequently, the 3,000 received it immediately upon conversion. He then aptly showed how the other examples in Acts about receiving it subsequently were for theological reasons. Most noticeably to show the Apostles that Gentiles are now in covenant with God (Samaritans, Cornelius). He also warned against devising a whole theological scheme upon a narrative such as Acts. This is especially true, because no where in any of the epistles does any apostle admonish us to seek a subsequent experience of the Spirit.
There is no doubt that the Spirit indwells every believer upon regeneration. It is a gift that “seals” us for our inheritance (Eph 1:13–14). I am also troubled by the amount of attention Pentecostals give to the Holy Spirit, because His purpose is to magnify Christ to the glory of the Father. If the Holy Spirit could be asked questions, I guarantee He would answer in the positive that He doesn’t want to be noticed.
The Fullness of the Spirit
I started to read about his contrast between “fullness” and “baptism,” and at first I was a little uneasy. His thesis was that the Spirit, although it indwells every believer, is at different times at different levels of fullness. He contrasted people who were believers but were not full of the Spirit and believers that had the Spirit in Its fullness. His text he talked a lot about was Ephesians 5:18, “And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit.” Here there is an admonition to be “filled with the Spirit.”
I found this refreshing, and he took much care in making the whole subject very applicable. I see a very real contrast between different levels of “fullness” although it doesn’t diminish the fact that all true believers have an indwelling of the Spirit. It was something that has profoundly impacted my own view on the Spirit, and seeking the fullness of the Spirit is now something that will be a large part of my Christian experience from here on out.
Fruits and Gifts of the Spirit
For brevity’s sake, I’m going to talk shortly about his interpretation of the fruits of the Spirit from Galatians 5:22–23. He broke them up into three categories: our relation to God (love, joy, peace), relation to others (patience, kindness, goodness), and relation to ourselves (faithfulness, gentleness, self-control). I did enjoy his analyzation of the botany analogy and its relation to the fruits. His thrust was that the fruits of the Spirit, much like fruit itself, take a while to cultivate; but when it is completed the ripened state is worth the wait. This is how we as Christians should view our own walk.
The gifts of the Spirit also had good analyzation. He started off by showing that the gifts of the Spirit are given to everyone. In other words, we can’t view the gifts of the Spirit as something that is given only to a chosen amount of believers. We all have some gift of the Spirit be it teaching, admonishing, or something similar. He also did good commentary on the four major passages dealing with Gifts: Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 12, 1 Peter 4, and Ephesians 4.
He came out about his “open but cautious view” which I have as well. He correctly stated that the office of Apostle as was in the early church has ceased. There is no doubt about this fact since the Canon of Scripture is complete. He also talked about prophecy a little bit. I agree that prophetic utterances as in “The Lord says…” are complete, but my understanding of prophecy is that of an office of admonishment (to which he says is to binding a definition). He does admit that tongues could be around, but he points out correctly that the Acts 2 and 1 Corinthians 12 tongues are the same thing that being languages. I found his analysis refreshing and honest. He didn’t admit that a complete cessation of all miraculous gifts (he does define “miraculous” in his book) is hard to substantiate, but the position is implied in his work. Again, I can’t suggest enough this work.
On Concentric Cessationism
Stott does talk about miraculous gifts being used to give validity to a ministry of God in the Bible. He mentions Moses (Law), Elijah (Prophets), Jesus (Messiah), and Apostles as being the four divisions to which miraculous signs are utilized. I think this is the best way to interpret the miraculous workings of the Holy Spirit. I will be the first to admit that the cessation of all miraculous gifts is not taught in the New Testament and 1 Corinthians 13:8 has an eschatological focus and not an end of the Apostolic age in view.
I was exposed to a view called Concentric Cessationism articulated by Daniel Wallace, professor at Dallas Theological. The belief is that the miraculous gifts of the Spirit are still at work but only in areas where a validation of the ministry and teachings of Christ are needed. Wallace gives us a definition of his view.
This is what I would call concentric cessationism, as opposed to linear cessationism. That is, rather than taking a chronologically linear approach, this kind of cessationism affirms that as the gospel moves, like the rippling effect of a stone dropping into a pond, in a space-time expanding circle away from first century Jerusalem, the sign gifts will still exist on the cutting edge of that circle. Thus, for example, in third world countries at the time when the gospel is first proclaimed, the sign gifts would be present. This view, then, would allow for these gifts to exist on the frontiers of Christianity, but would be more skeptical of them in the â??worked over’ areas. (Source)
This would show itself in unreached people groups. Just a casual reading of the Scriptures gives validity to this position, and I feel it is the most Scriptural for several reasons. First, as mentioned, miraculous gifts accompanied ministry where it needed validation such as Moses, Elijah, Jesus, and the Apostles. Second, the Bible promotes a view that God is a worship-oriented God which makes His command to His followers to be missiological. The missiological emphasis of the Scriptures puts weight that God will be most active where there is no Gospel. Lastly, the emphasis on “tongues” being different languages aptly used to share the Gospel gives weight to this view. That was the very emphasis of Acts when bystanders noticed after the Baptism of the Spirit: “how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born?” (Acts 2:8). And it was used solely for the purpose of spreading the Gospel.
Conclusion
This is meant to be an end-all to the debate, but I hope it helps in clarifying a particular view on the Spirit that holds up to the Scriptural teaching. There are things we as evangelicals should be worried about such as clearly defending that the Holy Spirit is the only active agent in regeneration, and it must precede faith (as taught in reformed Soteriology). I am also concerned about the Pentecostal focus on the Spirit and their doctrine of the subsequence experience of the Spirit. In closing, I again can’t suggest Stott’s work enough for clarity, brevity, and insight.
What about the clearness that the tongues were not known to the hearers in Corinthains and Paul’s exohrtation that the believer should pray to interpret the tongue?
What about it?
Why consider prophesy complete? I am always curious as to why that stance is taken… and maybe my ‘prickling’ to that thought has more to do with my own personal experiences that anything else… I have been present when prophetic words were spoken and also present when they have come to pass…
For years of my life I was uncomfortable with any so-called ‘expression’ of the Spirit…I had seen so much happen in churches lacking order and it really affected my view. I would hear of people claiming to BE prophets, doing traveling church services…wigged me out a bit. But then a couple of years ago I encountered a very orderly community where the gifts were evident, but never flaunted or put on display or given center stage, but rather took their natural place in the body. It was a very beautiful thing to see the gifts OF the Spirit (of His Possession) working to edify the church…
Well, I would say the kind of prophecy that the OT prophets, Jesus, and the Apostles gave is over; because their utterances were revelation given not only to themselves but all of God’s people. Canon complete means that variation of prophecy is complete.
I think NT “prophecy” doesn’t talk about foretelling the future like a fortune teller, but it refers to spiritual admonishment. My friend Leroy has written a good article on the NT definition of prophecy.
I believe this is the right approach as well.
I don’t take a full cessationist position, the gifts can and do happen, just not a rule to live by that every christian should have them and/or practice them. Just like a person can get healed when I pray for them, but it wasn’t that I had the gift of healing but that God wanted to heal that person at that time.
Greg Bahnsen has a good teaching on the cessationist position which can come in handy to balance out the charismatic position.
I believe a lot of the charismatic “revival” of these “gifts” is due to our society giving so much importance to the experience in order to establish meaning and truth. very existential for of religion.
: ) *raises hand* Excuse me, but I fail to see how “Concentric Cessationism” (or, indeed, any kind of cessationism) is biblical we’re deffinitely never told that the gifts would *stop* working as the gospel became more known. If anything, they should be MORE present. esplain please :)
And now, a bit o’ scripture to back up my assertion:
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
and in chapter 14, Paul urges us:
Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy
And backing up the first poster with Scripture, 1 Corinthians 14:2:
For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit
Someone got rather emotional before reading the whole article!
The question is: Why and when did the Gifts show themselves? The answer is that they showed up around the need to validate the ministry. From the four eras I mentioned law, prophets, messiah, and apostolic ministry the gifts were dispensed in that fashion. Throughout that is how God worked in miracolous fashions. I think the burden is on the pentecostals to verify their belief that God works in the same ways where ministry is validated (the U.S. is 99.996% reached and none of those unreached groups are in the Dayton area).
You’re a cessationist Ashley. You believe that the office of “upper case ‘A’” Apostle has ceased. Correct? You wouldn’t subscribe to a view that there is apostolic succession would you? We’re all cessationists on some level. (Read this article.)
Paul is contextually also referring to the church at Corinth at large and not at an individual level.
I’d typed a rather eloquent reply a couple days ago, but my computer crashed so now I have to start over *sigh* ;D
By the by, I wasn’t being emotional — or at least that wasn’t what I was trying to convey. *lol* I was trying to imply a bit of a lighter tone, sorry if it came across as confrontational. I do agree that the office of “upper case Apostle” is finished, but, according to Wikipedia:
In Christian theology, cessationism is the view that the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit, such as tongues, prophecy and healing, ceased some time around the first century.
Cessationists usually believe the miraculous gifts were for given only for the foundation of the Church, during the time between the coming of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, c. AD 33 (see Acts 2) and the fulfilment of God’s purposes in history, usually identified as either the completion of the last book of the New Testament or the death of the last Apostle. link
The second article linked above also makes the point that the teachings Paul applied to the church of Corinth apply to the modern church, or body of believers, as well :) I believe that “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.” I also believe that the gifts continue to show themselves, even today. Further, until the US is 100% saved, there remains those who are “unreached.” I think it’s telling when *foreign* missionaries come to our cities to do mission work.
I’m still somewhat curious of how the author of this work (and/or you personally) dismiss Paul’s clear statement that those who speak in tounges are not understood by the full congregation (after all, shouldn’t they each hear in their native tongue?)
P.S. ;D None of the Apostles or Christ could be Calvinists… They all died (or ascended, as it were) well before John Calvin was born — and, of course, I’ll honor his work when it becomes cannonized. >D
First, points to be made.
(1) That sucks that your computer crashed.
(2) That defintion you provided is of full cessationism. I made the point that we’re all cessationists to some degree, and I made this point by stating that all orthodox Christians believe the office of Apostle as exhibited by the writers of the NT has ceased to exist. Even famous charasmatics such as Wayne Grudem concede on this point. That you did not answer.
(3) I assume that you think that I do not believe that all Scripture is God-breathed? And second, Paul was talking about the Old Testament Scriptures in that passage (just a note).
(4) You still don’t know what “reached” and “unreached” are. Unreached is an area that has less than 2% evangelical and does not have a self-replicating church movement. America boasts well over 76% evangelical, and we have countless numbers of churches in this country. In fact, there are 6,000 churches for every unreached people group in the world! That’s disgusting. That’s why America is thoroughly reached.
(5) Let’s look at the Easton Bible Dictionary.
If one was speaking one language that others could not understand then there would need to be an intepreter. At Pentecost it was clear that not everyone could understand every language, but they each heard it in their own language. The charasmatic church today, much like the church at Corinth, is horribly misusing the gifts.
Also, I don’t take to all of the theology in every document I link to. I do believe that gifts are appropriated but only for the sake of advancing the Kingdom where validation is needed.
(6) You continue to make the fallacy that Calvinistic Doctrine started with, and is equated to, John Calvin. It was only named after him due to the debate in the 16th century at the Synod of Dort. If you want, go back to Augustine who debated Pelagius over the issues in the 4th century. Jesus and Paul wouldn’t have been “five point” Calvinists as we would enunciate it systematically today, but they would’ve agreed with the theological intepretation of man, election, atonement, grace, and perserverance.
Easy :D I never said that you didn’t think that all scripture was God breathed ;D I was just trying to make the point that saying “Well that was only for “Such-and-such-a-specific-Church” is (to my mind) one of the biggest Christian cop outs ever *grin* and believe you me, it’s deffinitely one I’m guilty of. And of course, I realize that Paul was specifically refering to the old testament in that instance, but I believe the the sentiment can be held true to the entire bible. I doubt you would disagree.
As for conceding my position on cessationism: I think I *did* say that I believe that the position of “Apostle” has been filled. ;D I was just pointing out that to the untrained theological mind, which humbly has to depend upon wikipedia to be able to discuss at high intellectual levels what I said makes sense ;D
I agree that it is tragic that there are people in the world that are not as religiously priveledged as we are here in the United States. However, that doesn’t make the people who aren’t saved here any less lost — and definitely doesn’t mean that God does not call people to minister to people who are here. (and, of course, we could argue about this all day because you’re never going to agree with me and I’m never going to agree with you ;D)
One more time, because I’m dumb, if everyone hears the same message in their own language, why do they need interpretors? Wouldn’t the same message be portrayed in *each* language? Further, who says that there aren’t interpretations today?
: ) More to come on the last point later, I have class ;D
Just because someone may utter a “tongue” doesn’t mean enough “tongues” are given by enough people to everyone listening. For instance, I could utter the Gospel in Arabic to an Arabic man, but there could be an American there who, to hear, must be intepreted. There’s no “angelic language” utterance.
Formula for Charasmatic tongues:
1. Repeat: “I want a Mazda, but coulda bought a Honda” until it begins running together.
2. Proclaim you have the gift of tongues.
3. Don’t you dare argue with me, b/c I’ve experienced it.
Typical Charasmatic discussion over the gifts:
Skeptic: “you know that ‘spiritual gifts’ as Pentecostals believe were silent for 2,000 years before the advent of pentecostalism and their theology?“
Charasmatic: “Don’t you dare argue with me, b/c I’ve experienced it.“
Skeptic: (sigh)
Whether you know it or not, your concession is a big deal, and it opens up the discussion that if one dies then why not others? A quandry indeed.
Lastly, yes no one is “called” to stay in a reached people group. Not you, I, or anyone else purchased of God. Sign, sealed, delivered. In fact, I challenge you to argue against that from Scripture. Good luck.
Yes, and I agree that that could happen but the argument I hear from that passage in Acts is that everyone heard in their own languange.
Formula for not believing that experiencing the gifts of the spirit is an integral part of Christianity:
1. Don’t pursue them
2. Stand around and go “It hasn’t happened to me, so it doesn’t exist.“
3. Perfect your look of condescending pity for those who think otherwise.
I don’t think it’s a big concession to make. Christ will not return until the end times, therefore it follows that those who studied directly under Christ (with, of course, the single exception of Paul) cannot exist unless he is personally overseeing them. If Christ doesn’t raise up Apostles, Apostles don’t exist.
A note on God’s love for humanity, and desire that ALL should be saved:
“This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.” ~ Paul 1 Timothy 2:3–4
” â?? And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in heaven above
And signs in the earth beneath:
Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.
And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the LORD
Shall be saved.â??“
~Peter, quoting the prophet Joel Acts 2:17–21
Jesus said to her, â??I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?â? ~Jesus, John 11:25–26
I’ll do a bit of scriptural research and come back to being called to domestic missions. But just one quick thought: If those who led you to Christ were reaching unreached people groups in darkest Africa — Where would you be?
Hey Chris, that definitely sounds like an interesting book and I don’t really see any points that you made that I would disagree with. I’ve been study gifts and Holy Spirit doctrine for quite some time now and have come to many conclusions. However, I have class at 4:30 so can’t put them all here right now.
I will say though, that just because everyone in Acts 2 heard the tongues in their own language, doesn’t mean that happened every time tongues happened. There were many people speaking in tongues at Pentecost…therefore, there were many languages that could be spoken. The reason they did not speak one at a time here, is because it was the coming of the Holy Spirit…tongues were used to show that the Holy Spirit had come. When using the gift of tongues, as 1 Corinthians discusses, only one person should speak at a time, and there must be an interpreter. Why an interpreter? Well, because 1 person can only speak 1 tongue, and it’s probably likely that most people won’t be able to understand that tongue without an interpreter. A distinction has to be made between tongues as a sign function, as used in Acts, and tongues as a spiritual gift, as used in Corinthians.
Another note, in Corinthians, we’re told to seek the higher gifts…tongues is actually at the bottom of the list. People today, just like those in the Corinthian church, often put more emphasis on the “showy” gifts.
Okay! Class time! More later probably. Hopefully what I wrote was understandable. I didn’t get to proof read! And yes, Chris, the book I’m reading is good and my relationship is going well.
Thanks Sarah.
First Ashley, God does not desire all men to be saved (see this post). You’re reading into the passage. And I’m familiar with those passages, and I’m not quite sure where you’re getting at. If you’re trying to debunk election it was pitiful.
And I was led to Christ by people on their way to the nations. They got me along the way.
wow, Chris, sometimes you come across as really arrogant.
…but you still make good arguments
wow, Chris, sometimes you come across as really arrogant.
I know. It’s these Pentecostal folk. They try my patience.
Hey Chris, I have to apologise to you. Some of the things I said in my previous posts weren’t said out of love. Regardless of what I think of your theology, you remain my brother in Christ, and while it is permissible for me to question your beliefs it should be done with an attitude of humility and to bring glory to God. I was getting irritated with you and I apologise for my harsh tone.
However, I was not trying to debunk election, I will not deny that there is reference to foreknowledge of God, predestined occurences, and election — I was simply trying to state that the bible ALSO clearly implies a devine desire for the salvation of all — and no amount of well-written explaining away will take those words from the bible. The bible also clearly illustrates the free will of man, as well as man impacting the mind of God through prayer. I will never argue that God is not Soveriegn, but I also do not serve a God who is a puppet master — or arbitrarily creates people to be damned to hell. How do these things, then, work together? I don’t know. I can’t explain or quantify it because I do not know the mind of God. I am content to have knowledge of these facts without understanding it. In my humanity, I cannot fully comprehend the power, majesty, glory or purpose of God. I’m ok with that, though — this mystery is one of the many things I look forward to learning at the feet of my master in eternity.
On the issue of “Pentacostal Folk”, though. One thing I would like to know though, is what do you acomplish by continually dragging those Christians with (you must admit) relatively small theologically differences through the mud? Are our walks less productive because we believe that the gifts of the spirit continue to be manifest in believers today? Scripture says that you will know followers of Christ by their fruits. I have seen so much fruit through, with and in Chi Alpha over the last year — more than I have ever seen growing up in a succession of reformed Southern Baptist churches. Why, then, can’t you rejoice with us over those who are added to our number daily, instead of trying to discount our witness for Christ? Personally, I do not agree with a lot of your theology — but I still believe that you have a role to fill in the kingdom of God, and I would never try to damage your ministry in any way. In fact, I have such a deep degree of respect for your biblical knowledge that I have on more than one occasion defered to you in situations where I could have chosen to turn the situation to someone who’s theology more closely mirrored my own. I believe that everyone has something to add to the kingdom of God — and I believe that anyone who is futhering the cause of Christ and is showing substantial fruit in their walk should be encouraged.
Sarah: :) I agree with you that we should seek the higher gifts. I doubt anyone would tell you that you should STOP pursuing them because you’ve recieved one (or more) ;D
I wouldn’t say that doctrine concerning the Holy Spirit fits into the category of “relatively small theological differences”. It’s a huge and critical difference. And from my recent Acts Bible study, I don’t understand why it’s so difficult for some “charasmatic” circles to understand the Holy Spirit. Especially those circles who support the faulty idea that you recieve the baptism of the Holy Spirit after salvation instead of at the point of salvation, and along with this baptism experience speaking in tongues. This is a serious misinterpretation of the Bible which can be disasterous to other believers’ walks with Christ.
Every experience should be examined in light of Biblical truth. It shouldn’t be that “we believe the gifts of the spirit continue to manifest”, it should be “the Bible supports that gifts of the spirit continue to manifest”. Just because you’ve “experienced” something, doesn’t mean the Bible supports it as true.
It is good that you have seen spiritual fruit, however, it concerns me when there seems to be a greater focus on “experiencing” God (through speaking in tongues, being slain in the spirit, etc.) than on correct interpretation of the Bible and on correct doctrine. Is it good when “numbers are added daily”, but those people are not exposed to what the Bible supports as true but are instead encouraged to “seek out” such experiences? We also must ask ourselves, who said that those things are the ultimate of experiencing God? I would say that if someone thinks things like speaking in tongues, being slain in the spirit, and uncontrollable laughter are the max when it comes to experiencing God, then I’d say, much like the Corinthian church, they haven’t truly experienced God all that much. They are still relying on spiritual milk when it comes to experiencing God. Those things are not the ultimate.
Ashley, I’m not trying to be hostile or take jabs at you, but I’ve had a lot of trying experiences with people who have faulty doctrine and put all their emphasis on gifts and experience, people who’ve tried to convince me to do the same or make me feel like a lower Christian because of it. I almost fell into believing that I was “missing something” because I had never spoken in tongues or been slain in the spirit. And that is so wrong. It’s just another form of legalism. And I get tired of this argument.
I want to evidence the fruits of the Spirit and build those in me by growing closer to God and letting His Spirit fill me daily. Every person gets a Spiritual gift and I fully expect that I will use mine how God intended. I do not, however, need to center my walk on gifts. The Bible tells us to center our lives on Jesus and the spreading of the Gospel, not gifts or any other point of argument. I feel that too much of a focus on gifts is very unhealthy for churches, leading to superficial spirituality, not a deep relationship with God.
Sarah — great stuff! Reposted.
Ashley — I reciprocate the apology.
“it concerns me when there seems to be a greater focus on â??experiencingâ? God (through speaking in tongues, being slain in the spirit, etc.) than on correct interpretation of the Bible and on correct doctrine.” do you believe that God can be “experianced” if so how if not why do most christian churches both charismatic and non focus on christianity not being a religion but a relationship with God through Jesus. how can a true relationship not include experiances? “We also must ask ourselves, who said that those things are the ultimate of experiencing God? ” who did say this? I don’t see this claim made or implyed here by anyone. I think that we can agree based on biblical evidence that we will not have the ultimate experances with God untill we get to heaven. this however does not mean that we cannot have any experiances with God while we are here on earth. That stance is obviously not supported by scripture. I do not really understand why cessationists spend so much time telling charismatics that how we experiance God is wrong and how they experiance God is right. We are all individuals and I think that it is logical that each of our relationships with God are different. each of the apostals had a different walk with God… does that mean paul was better then petter but not as good as John? No. they were just different. if you as an individual choose to not “seek the greater gifts” thats your porogative I do not think you should look down on your brothers and sisters in christ who do so though.
it should be â??the Bible supports that gifts of the spirit continue to manifestâ?. Just because youâ??ve â??experiencedâ? something, doesnâ??t mean the Bible supports it as true. I agree on this aspect however there are many experiances that the bible never mentions that are still true. for example you’re reading this post on a computer computers are not mentioned in the bible that does not make them non-existant. in addition the argument on cessation or not is based on the interpretation of the God breathed bible by imperfect humans. we can be wrong in our interpretation I am willing to admit that about myself… are you? however even though we are capable of being wrong I think God knows this and helps us to learn from this in order to gain a more correct view. this is why I think arguing certian docterine that are not of a salvific nature is of limited merit. in other words cant we just agree on the gospel do our job and let other differencs of oppionon and preference take a back seat as less important?
@Chris: God does not desire all men to be saved? 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. He correctly stated that the office of Apostle as was in the early church has ceased. Hmmm, I beg to differ. This position seems to rest on the belief that to be an apostle, one must have been an NT writer (Paul, Peter, James, John, etc), and one must have worked miracles. The NT talks about quite a few people who were called apostles but who did not write any books. Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me. Some have suggested that Junia was female, but lets not start another argument! @Ashley: I share your feelings about small issues diving us. Sometimes I wish we’d dovote the same passion towards stuff like prayer and Bible study and evangelism. However, how do we differentiate between “significant differences” and “insignificant differences”? What we call differences are really things we perceive as ERROR in what others believe.
@Jyde: Please see this post.